Many do not seek truth, but whatever best tickles their ears. You can ONLY imagine the slowly erupting chaos that ensued. Surely some student got it on their phone. More Events. I adhere to the never-say-never adage but cant even remotely imagine EVER being involved with a church again. TS00: It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Now they want it back. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. The majority of the people who were questioning you were NOT anonymous (including me), and there is more factual information about HBC on Twitter than there has ever been from HBC leaders own mouths, including yours. According to Titus 1:5-9 Friend: And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. I hate using this corporate example but if you have a CEO of your company who does not meet the qualifications for that job, what happens? Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. Wonderful, on point comment. He already gets $500K tax free per year in deferred comp, plus reportedly around $200K tax free in parsonage allowance. Jesus talked a LOT about living in the Kingdom we would do well to read His words living in the church doesnt always mean living in the Kingdom. I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. I sincerely thank you for this letter and the emotional turmoil you overcame to write it. As for your dig at anonymous people, you are hoping to do the same thing. I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. Or, in English, Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. Cudos for your honesty. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. and bring me another beer. If the elders arent spiritual men, consider another church. You chose to serve in a church with incredibly stupid , unbiblical and mean people in charge. Revamping the financial transparency laws for 501-c3 religious entities would be a good start. Then, he apologized and said the would teach the high school Bible class. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. The harm is already done. Because he met the qualifications for eldership? and when he first committed to downsizing, I told him not to do it, that he didnt need to.. A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. It is always, My friends are here, My kids depend on the youth group, or Who is going to bury me?. Harvest Bible Chapel is one church meeting on six campuses. And I have collaborated with Ryan and Jessica, among others, throughout this. Not even fit to be chair of my department at Average State U. The Chosen is an artistic retelling of biblical events and it never claims to be a replacement for Scripture nor an addition to the holy Word of God. James mocking his own flock with his outrageous private Cabo party to end all parties, with the $50,000 magician, wont go unanswered. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? My cousin belongs to a house church in western Iowa. Thank you for your insights. That is the foundation of our faith. RadMan7: Credibility has been diminished. Lets keep in mind that the XLT members were all making 6 figures and had very generous T&E accounts and were living the life of rockstars prior to this implosion. 1. Prayer Requests Note, that they are always mentioned in a plural form. Plus there are several tombs of El Cid, the lost hero who saved Spain from the Muslim rulers in different cathedrals. So when I see the original Church held out for a few generations, I think Wow, amazing foundation!. That is because genuine relationships among people are an existential threat to the cult. And you sound profoundly arrogant. i think we could analyze this for days, weeks, months. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. During this season, we are encouraging everyone to give online and that can be done by clicking the button below. Back Small Group Harvest Kids Harvest Students College Men Women Harvest Worship Disablities Prayer Care Outreach . In the history of the church, which is most seductive:money, sex, or power? This was followed quickly by Harvest Bible Chapel and lead pastor James MacDonald who was recently fired. I hope that brings you some hope and encouragement today. Hang on. Recreated vertical version of "Hallelujah" sang by Heather Headley reflecting on the sacrifice of our savior. but again, oodles of people also have personal knowledge of the kingdom of God, through knowing God. We only saw the one tomb. Harvest was known for emphasizing unapologetic preaching of the Bible, unashamed adoration of God's Son, unafraid witness to the gospel, and unceasing prayer. Remove the plank so the splinter can be clearly seen. They will return to their secrecy and self-dealing as a dog returns to his vomit, because power and money are that seductive and because if they could keep it a secret during the height of the Harvest scandal, no way will it be discovered at a less notorious church. Harvest Bible Chapel We're here to glorify God through the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20). They should no longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the oversight which non-religious entities must abide by. Jeff Chalmers And before any more electrons needlessly perish, an argument about the validity of the pastoral office vs elders is probably not the real issue in the HBC case. Have seen the exact same thing. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Women's Bible Study. Didnt Paul rejoice from prison that the gospel was preached, whether from false motives or true? I understand He loves us to infinity as my 6 year old likes to say, but it sure wouldve been nice if pastor had given parents of small children some kind of warning. But how long, under the sort of behavior he and others depict, can one be excused for overlooking the facts? Those who did not succumb were pushed out. When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now. holy They deserve each other. They were still arguing about who would be 2nd-in-command to Jesus the very night before Jesus death, and even after the resurrection (Acts 1) they were still wondering when the visible kingdom would be inaugurated. After two years of searching without success, a generous supporter offered Harvest her property650 beautiful, wooded acres on a lake in Newaygo, Michiganand Camp Harvest was launched on July 28, 2002. You are used to being in control of who sees what. . Like livestock for slaughter so Pastor can eat mutton until he bursts like Mr Creosote. First Church Plant - Harvest Bible Fellowship But its ok its been part of this whole course but it would be nice if you could go back and reflect your motivations in those comments I cant speak for you but kinda think it had to do with some of your cult bonding you experienced at harvest. Dallas Jenkins and Dean Butters letters are only two of six submitted to the Elders. Both Steve Carter and Jenkins waited for public outcry and then expressed their moral outrage. 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. May you feel Gods presence and peace in the days ahead. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. really, what im saying is i think we can hold Paul and his comments loosely, just as we hold what others say loosely. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. I can only imagine what was said as explanation, particularly as my spouse (still blindly loyal) remained much longer than I, until our children put up a united appeal to leave. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. And if this instance is questionable, then all posts and claims are questionable and credibility goes out the window all because Dee knows best for everyone and will not allow discussion after making claims with no supporting evidence. The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. Personally, I call bull. Agreed. All three words refer to one position or office within the church, that of the elders. Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). Hey, if you look at JMACs Instagram he has a pic from fall of 2018 praising Mark Driscolls new book? Fayetteville, AR 72703. Well played. Never! All this is coming out that millions of dollars potentially has been mishandled, he said. There was no glory or wealth in being a shepherd, once one of the more despised positions due to its lowliness. What is the source? words like unsaved, which always has the connotation of someone to be wary of. Even during confusion, never-ending drama, attacks and Any truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be made public! Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. January 24, 2023. Leaders raging, even with kids; no one doing anything but continuing to pay. The too big to fail driver kicks in and makes church leaders think and do things they might not otherwise. So, so much we dont know. My Comment was Deleted Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. And he was promoted to the XLT or whatever?? It is the internal nagging I have following Dees post on Friday about JD Hall and Braxton Caner. The false institutional church was reconstituted by Constantine, who asserted the right to define and regulate what was orthodox and permissible. Didnt Dallas or is there another Jenkins son? This disturbing senior pastor made fun of other HBC church leaders for their physical attributes that he deemed not up to snuff with his obvious sartorial sense and unsurpassed personal good looks. We all know that Gateways Crisis Manager Lawrence Swicegood is helming the 2020 Committee, so this is not surprising. The one time we visited Spain and France and visited (maybe 4 or 5) churches from about 1200 CE up to Notre Dame in Paris, there were (especially in Spain) tons of silver and gold used on private family altars scattered all around the floor of the more recent cathedrals, to the point that there wasnt really room for many actual worshippers. Of course, Im a few miles from SEBTS and JD Greears church is on every street corner, along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. While some noble souls may have stayed longer thinking they could make a difference and persuade JMac to be a better man, the wise ones would have realized this to be an impossible task and took the first opportunity to get while the gettin was good. jyjames: How to do church that has nothing to do with Jesus, then. There is no question that MacDonald was running the elders. . If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. with or without religious trappings. and on the iceberg? And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came I approve as soon as I have a moment. I am there; have been close to 8-years now. Check out the Stronger Mens Conference It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. Echoes of simony as well as James 2:2-4, There are arguably relational dis-economies of scale in social structures. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. And I know I post too much. Too bad he doesnt understand that it can be used just as much for good as it can be for bad. You see, the symbolic meaning of harvest in Scripture encompasses two main areas: God's provision for us and God's blessing for others. You sound like an attorney who just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by a victim. Which almost conquered my soul. We celebrated Gods blessing of 100 church plants in just 14 years in 2014. While I dont agree with all PJ says, I will say that I too have concerns whenever free speech is abridged, however well intended the reasons. Many will say to Me on that day when I judge them, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name? And then I will declare to them publicly, I never knew you; depart from Me, you are banished from My presence, you who act wickedly disregarding My commands. (Matthew 7:21-23). Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. elastigirl: why does it matter what Max thinks, I took your text out of context a bit, so forgive me. apostle-schmapostle. Max: benefiting from the council of senior saints. There has been financial fraud committed by Harvest and its leaders. Bridget: I dont know, Ken. Every single person there loves Harvest so much that they cant leave?? you are a very comforting presence here, Max. Maybe you missed the point of her post. And he didnt say crap, at least publicly. Pre-1970 power (denominational competition for theological control of the Body of Christ), Post-1970 money (mega-madness begins, 6-figure salaries, limelight, mansions, jets). Jesus said it is basically impossible that any rich man ever makes it into Gods Kingdom, and you and the others have ignored that. Now James MacDonald joins the fracas, adding his own peculiar vulgarities to the mix. Churchgoers in 21st century America are just too gullible to keep these folks out of the pulpit. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. They will now export it across the US. I mean, everyone thought Willow Creek was that church. TS00: Agreed. Looking at the history of newer religious organizations created in the era of print is instructive and revelatory. And are angry. Bible Follower | The Bible contains a wealth of knowledge and wisdom that's waiting for us to unearth it. If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. I will try and reign it in. Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc. Sorry to hear that he is now masquerading as Santa Claus Ill tell my grandchildren to be on the lookout. GOD SAITH!!!!!. So I want to say Than. Thats a rare bird, indeed, in the American church. Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. I initially read that as bought him years of support. I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. Whatever we do as a church family, this is Gods work among us this is His church and His mission, to the glory of Jesus Christ. not greedy for money Scary to think that unfaithful leaders can so easily jump from one pond to another. Humility is required. Every believer has a part! Someday Ill be big enough so you cant hit me into playing a role in a conspiracy they do not even grasp. What in the world is running through his mind that he wouldnt want the truth shouted from the rooftops to those whod been under Macs influence far and wide? It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. Id call him a bottom feeder but I like lobster too much..So hes lower than that. Yet another reason why the financial transparency laws for religious non-profit entities needs to change. not violent I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. I think this is how these pastors maintain tribal loyalties. Some of that was probably bad stuff that was always phony, that Im glad is gonebut Im sure some of it was good stuff that, far as I know, died years ago. Well, I assume that you are the Dallas Jenkins referred to in the OP, but I have no way of confirming that. Even during Christs life the disciples were weighing out who was most important and who would take the position above all the others. These arent hard hurdles for true elders to get throughbut if you ask a church elder to tell you about their elders and it comes back with a set of corporate jargon? 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