I used to have a lot of respect for RC Sproul Sr. No more. I dont think he should. (I figured that if you had a DSM book that you were in mental health in some capacity, and Ive read your other comments on other threads.). Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). In my part of the U.S. we thankfully have a variety of lost-cost medical clinics that include psychiatric services. So, his alcoholism caught up with him. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. You appear to have reading comprehension problems and are far more focused on insisting that you be heard (thus you keep posting the same 4 point list, over and over again) than you are willing to consider others opinions. Having had much shade thrown our way in the early 80s because our oldest son was into alcohol and drugs, we decided to start a support group called Parents Concerned This was in Silicon Valley. I wonder if they are applying this to all, or only to people who fill certain roles? Many of us have suffered tragedies. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. No, I definitely do support them. Abuse is a different issue. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. For the record, I said above I dont know where I stand on this. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. Ive read a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. Some people, for example, may be convinced that consuming alcohol is against Gods law. Yes, the pain is awful. I dont know what treatment would work best for Mr Sproul, but I dont think it should differ that widely from what would be offered to any of his parishioners. Sproul Jr. needs serious help. A lovely woman in my church was an alcoholic. 13 God judges[b] those outside. We really need to drop it as this point. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. If that wasnt bad enough, look who wrote the books foreword: Tullian Tchividjian Coral Ridge Presbyterian Churchs ousted pastor who was caught in serial clergy sexual misconduct, and who has never repented to the victims he harmed! Youve been hoodwinked. They all knew that by inviting Jr into their pulpits in their churches and at their conferences it would buy them favor with the old man. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. Whatever legal consequences the judge orders, including a combination of jail time and substance abuse treatment as a condition of probation, would be the best plan of action in dealing with him as a substance abuser. There is a world of difference between an alcoholic of no particular name or reputation benefiting from the love of a functional church, and an authoritarian church CEO being effectively treated in the very church in which his word has been law for years. Someone just thanked me who has that struggle and who was reading here yesterday, churned up by the discussion. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. The fact that he felt ok about this statement says a lot of about an addicts powers of denial. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. And then there are those who say stuff that is good as gold and kind to the core. Correction of typo (I wish we could edit here! I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. Not sorry I did, either. Ann Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931. Velour said: Daisy, You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. It is ASTOUNDING to me that Christians make excuses for a TWICE DEFROCKED PASTOR. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus) Maybe someday Ill feel comfortable sharing more of my story here. (A stinkbomb doesnt have to be dropped with malicious intent to make a room uninhabitable). Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. Barbara said that H.U.G. Your use of we in your comment doesnt make sense to me because youre the only one to push the issue. Even pastor Wade Burleson who has E-Church here on Sundays doesnt subscribe to that. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. You arent making any sense in your belief that were all supposed to intuit what Barbara is thinking and therefore she doesnt have to say it. I have taken care of people with those types of disabilities for almost four decades. He was shocked, couldnt believe it. In all fairness, that is not what Barbara said. I need to verify you are who you say you are, but will respect your privacy. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. Barbra said that R.C. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. So I would be cautious about over-emphasizing secular, mainstream, or Non-Christian solutions and treatment to hurting people, whether they are alcoholics, or are suffering from domestic abuse or from depression, or whatever they are undergoing. It sounds so evil. Telling me how to think, how to feel, that Im not permitted to use certain terminology. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. No, they dont take those kinds of positions. Leave him alone! That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; With one person I knew who was bailing out her adult sons I would tell her that she needs to let them experience the consequences of their actions. Sproul Jr. has done. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. Association of Related Churches Thankfully, the truth of Scripture (all have sinned) helped me to realize that there is only even ground at the foot of the Cross. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. Julie Anne wrote: This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has.. We have already covered this multiple times. Serous help? Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. ), Mae wrote: I've enclosed a letter from Lael Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I've been in contact with. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) That is an important element here. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) I said, Sproul Jr. has suffered tragedies, yes. It matters not if the problem is a sickness or a moral failure. That is probably because some of us have been following RC1 and RC2 longer than others. Barbra said that R.C. @ Julie Anne: Several of my friends in high school were killed by drunk drivers. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. Drinking and driving is SO DANGEROUS! When you advocate excommunications for people, be prepared to fully explain yourself and be prepared for push back. It is merely that when the topic came up I wrote about it, and note that I did not address my comment to any particular person. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? To paraphrase a 1950s interview with a trailer-trash Ku Kluxer: Not always. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. We met many times at a local restaurant after car shows. No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. Hi Julie Anne, You can read our explanation here: While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. Why does someone have to specifically endorse treatment for someone or something in order to confirm in your mind that they are not anti-treatment? We agree on your closing statement, Velour. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. How will the church ever be helpful in getting people help if the answer is to just avoid them and to cherry-pick Scripture verses to justify your own lack of love? . Its good that you told your parents about it, and its good they protected you from further harm. I have been nice to H.A. I offered H.A. (not that any of us arent being transparent in this virtual thing, here. The love and truth and power of God can accomplish things which man cannot even imagine. @ Christiane: 4. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. To me, the urgency should be to get him out of ministry leadership entirely. No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. While it is your prerogative since it is your blog, there are other legitimate treatment methods that do incorporate the word and there is nothing wrong with it. Then it is up to the people who see this going on to stop it. I told him I had not been praying specifically for him (I hadnt even been thinking of him at all) but that I had been praying in general for the conversion of souls. @ Velour: Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. Thank you. However, he does now have a permanent criminal record, and a felony record, no less. I think Velour was confused by a post I put on my Daisy blog. I have more than a few alcoholics in my family, some of whom have passed away, possibly a direct or indirect effect of the alcohol. Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. or a swindler [scams, cons] No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. Somehow, he recovered, fathered a son, but soon was drinking again. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=64172013222, http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=611171954312. I am not defending excommunication in any way. Ive read all your comments to this point, yes, and Im still mystified why you are so upset with other peoples comments. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Occasionally, there is the lone alcoholic who maintains stability but I dont believe that is the norm. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. AA in particular is seriously overrated, and even the courts know it. Treatment can help only those who reach rock bottom. There are many lovely ones and I count several as close friends. I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. All this to say, I am so very glad you survived! the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. Most drunk drivers know theyre drunk, and theyre worried about potential consequences, so they slow down. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. And wisdom to know the difference. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? They are quite different. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack.. I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. One may be a choice, the other, an illness. So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. I dont think many people in American culture know what to make of people who go to social functions and dont stand around with a drink. @ refugee: Yet while Scripture condemns drunkenness, it nowhere says that consuming strong drink is in itself evil. But interventions and treatment does work. Haha. In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. We will do almost anything to aid recovery, but we will not enable alcoholism. The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. Then as soon as they express repentance (they dont have to show it, they just have to say the word), theyre restored, and everyone else is supposed to show understanding and forgiveness. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. No, I saw your list. It's disturbing. Some might call it being accountable. I just dont know any. As the Apostle Paul instructs us, these instructions are not grievous; they provide strength, nourishment to the establishment of the believer within the body of Christ. But! Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. Thank you for your thoughtful comment to me. She received the same love that she would have been given if her disease had been something more socially acceptableand the church helped prevent her from being isolated. After he left St. Peter Presbyterian in 2010 to move to Orlando and join Ligonier Ministries he also part-time preached at a couple of tiny churches started by others, the first of which he was shown the door for stealing church moneys, and the second of which was started by a personal friend of his. Not even your friend pastor Wade Burleson advocates that. Sproul Jr. and his family in my prayers. The idea that hurting people hurt people is correct but it is not comprehensive. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? It is a gift. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. I find that the best part of blogging. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite. It wont. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. From the bottom of my heart and for all of the lurkers here who struggle with addictions who ARE Christians, thank you! I dont disagree with you that a drunkard also needs medical assistance to give up his addiction, and very likely would also benefit from mental health assistance to deal with other underlying issues he may have. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. I remember a few times (fewer than the number of excommunications, of course), someone was also publicly welcomed back at a worship service and biblically restored to the body. Clearly you didnt read my comment with any understanding of what I was saying. This is beyond shocking. The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] God help you, dear. : Too. ++++++++++++++. Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). But we're not there yet. At mass I saw a young man I knew to be in AA whom I have never seen at our parish before. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. Color me angry. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. This man needs help. Its about Love. despite the nasty barbs. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I don't appreciate your "he who is without sin" diatribe. There are many new ones and perhaps they are better at helping people. Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking. Would love to see some stats on that. (I use red wine in cooking and I am glad to be out of an insufferable NeoCalvinist church that saw sin in everything, including spaghetti sauce.). Were not just talking about an alcoholic (RC Sproul Jr). Theres a lot in the Bible, not just one verse. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. I will admit one thing, I have never made more than 50 K a year in my entire life and I work 60-90 hours a week which includes much of my advocacy work. 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